As readers of this Blog well know, I don't usually discuss things "in the negative" here!
I tend to give every person, place, or thing discussed, addressed, or otherwise reviewed at this Blog the benefit of the doubt - and a degree of respect that is not found in many other places on The Internet!
So, on the very rare occasions where I let loose with a harsh degree of criticism, I must have been EXTREMELY DISPLEASED! ...And, let the record show that I WAS extremely displeased with the "Undiscovered Realm Comic Con", which I visited on Saturday, May 04, 2019!
After an opening like that, why pull punches? I'll just flatly say this was the absolute worst comic convention I've ever attended (and I've been going to such cons since 1980!)
But, let's back it up a bit and consider why it was so, what was involved in the process of traveling to and from the event, the exorbitant admission fee (relative to what was offered), and WHY I WAS EVEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE!
Starting with that last one, our friend and fellow "Core Four" Disney comic book "translator and dialogue creator" Thad Komorowski was moderating a panel on one of his great passions... Ren and Stimpy!
As the author of "Sick Little Monkeys"...
...The definitive book on the subject of everyone's favorite Nicktoon (...whether or not they'll admit it), Thad is uniquely qualified to host this panel featuring the great Billy West and Bob Camp!
Awww... We love you too, Spongebob! But, Ren and Stimpy? They're, you know, "special"!
And so, with thoughts of this great panel - and seeing Thad again... and (note this, folks) filling back issue gaps at a comic con I never attended before (didja get that?), I set out on what some would deem an arduous trek that involved a bus, a commuter train, a subway, and another commuter train to take me to the Undiscovered Realm Comic Con... with my omnipresent comics want list in my hot little hands!
I live in the eastern mid-suburbs of New York City, and Undiscovered Realm was in the mid-to-further-northern suburbs. Thus the many and varied modes of transportation. But, being born and raised in and around New York, negotiating the vagaries of public transit has never been difficult or unpleasant for me! In fact, I rather enjoy it, vs. the white-knuckled angst of driving - especially through NYC!
Joining up with me along the route was my friend and editor David Gerstein and friend Tom Stathes, who were looking forward to Thad's panel as well! As we walked up to the arena, David remarked on the noticeable "lack of Geeks" lined up, or otherwise milling about, outside the building.
And, while we all took this as something of an ominous sign of things to come, I never imagined this would turn out to be (everybody ready?) the absolute worst comic convention I've ever attended!
If David wondered where everyone was, his answer came as we entered the building! They were waiting, stuck in a VERY LONG AND SLOW-MOVING LINE TO PURCHASE TICKETS! Though there appeared to be fewer than 30 people on line ahead of us, I really think my Subway shuttle trip from Times Square to Grand Central Station was completed more quickly than the wait to pay a THIRTY DOLLAR ONE-DAY ADMISSION!
But, I didn't care about that! Once paid and admitted, I couldn't wait to get at ALL THOSE COMIC BOOK DEALERS! We had close to three hours before Thad's panel, and I wondered if I would have time to visit ALL THOSE COMIC BOOK DEALERS before the posted start time!
Reaching for my list, I energetically burst through the doors of the main hall - ready to see ALL THOSE COMIC BOOK DEALERS!
My usual M.O. at comic cons is to go all the way over to one side of the hall (usually the side to my right, as I face the room) and work my way up and down the aisles until finally reaching the opposite side now with a full briefcase of back issues, purchased from (you know...) ALL THOSE COMIC BOOK DEALERS!
There were four (?) lengthy aisles in total, with vendors on both sides of each aisle! Each, I thought, a potential source for filling those remaining holes in my comic book collection! With ALL THOSE COMIC BOOK DEALERS, how could I miss?
So, we walked up and back down the FIRST aisle. No comic book dealers!
Oh, there were plenty of booths offering toys, trinkets, doo-dads, shirts, costuming accessories, and tables for artists doing commissions! But where were ALL THOSE COMIC BOOK DEALERS?!
Fine, if they weren't in the FIRST AISLE, then surely they must be in the SECOND!
Nope! And same for the THIRD! Anyone who had any comics on display, it was merely a minor and ancillary part of whatever their business was! Or, as they say in good ol' NYC... "Move on! Nothing to see here!"
The FOURTH and FINAL aisle did have two dealers who primarily dealt in comics... but having largely none of the many different Silver and Bronze Age comics that I write about here, and that make up the remainder of my want list!
For THIRTY FREAKING DOLLARS FOR A ONE-DAY ADMISSION to a show billing itself as a "COMIC CON", this is ALL I GET?! REALLY?!
The promoters of this show ought to be SHAMED... or SUED! Or, combine the two and make 'em "SHAMUED"? Yeah, hit 'em TWICE AS HARD!
In 39 years of comic-con attendance, this is without question the (...all together now) absolute worst comic convention I've ever attended!
Aside from Thad's panel, there was but one saving grace to the disappointing day. That was meeting Ken Wheaton, the artist of this POPEYE comic produced for the special occasion of Popeye's 80th Birthday!
It's black and white, but very well done! After all, there are those that consider most of Popeye's best animated moments to be in black and white - so why not apply that to comics?
It was this AND ONLY THIS that prevented the "Undiscovered Realm Comic Con" from being the first and only comic con in those 39 years, at which I did not purchase a single comic! And, even this is something of a technicality!
Here is the BACK COVER of the issue...
...And here is interior Page One!
Hey, it's the ONLY COMIC I bought ALL DAY at the (...say it with me) absolute worst comic convention I've ever attended! Of course, I'm going to show it off!
But a serious word to the folks behind the "Undiscovered Realm Comic Con"... PLEASE DON'T ADVERTISE YOUR EVENT AS A "COMIC CON", UNLESS YOU HAVE A FAIR NUMBER OF ACTUAL COMIC BOOK DEALERS THERE!
THE LACK OF SAME - AND NOTHING MORE - IS WHY I MUST (repeatedly and regretfully) DESCRIBE YOUR SHOW AS "THE ABSOLUTE WORST COMIC CONVENTION I'VE EVER ATTENDED!"
...And you don't REALLY want anyone to speak of it like that, do you? I didn't enjoy doing so myself. It's not my nature to do so, as my readers will attest.
It may have been a very nice "TOY SHOW", or some-such... but it was NOT a COMIC CON in ANY sense of the phrase with which I'm familiar!
Nothing personal or harmful is intended by these comments. It is just "a review of the event" by one who paid his admission to what was billed as a "COMIC CON", and honestly felt he received far too little in return.
Funny thing... Of late, I've often wished for a "less crowded con, where the aisles are not choked by cosplayers and those who slavishly photograph them with their omnipresent phones"! Be careful what you wish for, because "Undiscovered Realm Comic Con" was pretty much that... but with virtually NO COMICS! (Sob!)
If this ever changes, please let me know, because we can always use another GOOD COMIC CON around here! ...As long it it REALLY IS a "GOOD COMIC CON"!
Fine, if they weren't in the FIRST AISLE, then surely they must be in the SECOND!
Nope! And same for the THIRD! Anyone who had any comics on display, it was merely a minor and ancillary part of whatever their business was! Or, as they say in good ol' NYC... "Move on! Nothing to see here!"
The FOURTH and FINAL aisle did have two dealers who primarily dealt in comics... but having largely none of the many different Silver and Bronze Age comics that I write about here, and that make up the remainder of my want list!
For THIRTY FREAKING DOLLARS FOR A ONE-DAY ADMISSION to a show billing itself as a "COMIC CON", this is ALL I GET?! REALLY?!
The promoters of this show ought to be SHAMED... or SUED! Or, combine the two and make 'em "SHAMUED"? Yeah, hit 'em TWICE AS HARD!
In 39 years of comic-con attendance, this is without question the (...all together now) absolute worst comic convention I've ever attended!
It would seem that some things that are UNDISCOVERED should REMAIN so!
Aside from Thad's panel, there was but one saving grace to the disappointing day. That was meeting Ken Wheaton, the artist of this POPEYE comic produced for the special occasion of Popeye's 80th Birthday!
It's black and white, but very well done! After all, there are those that consider most of Popeye's best animated moments to be in black and white - so why not apply that to comics?
It was this AND ONLY THIS that prevented the "Undiscovered Realm Comic Con" from being the first and only comic con in those 39 years, at which I did not purchase a single comic! And, even this is something of a technicality!
Here is the BACK COVER of the issue...
...And here is interior Page One!
Hey, it's the ONLY COMIC I bought ALL DAY at the (...say it with me) absolute worst comic convention I've ever attended! Of course, I'm going to show it off!
Thad's panel, of course, was great!
But a serious word to the folks behind the "Undiscovered Realm Comic Con"... PLEASE DON'T ADVERTISE YOUR EVENT AS A "COMIC CON", UNLESS YOU HAVE A FAIR NUMBER OF ACTUAL COMIC BOOK DEALERS THERE!
THE LACK OF SAME - AND NOTHING MORE - IS WHY I MUST (repeatedly and regretfully) DESCRIBE YOUR SHOW AS "THE ABSOLUTE WORST COMIC CONVENTION I'VE EVER ATTENDED!"
...And you don't REALLY want anyone to speak of it like that, do you? I didn't enjoy doing so myself. It's not my nature to do so, as my readers will attest.
It may have been a very nice "TOY SHOW", or some-such... but it was NOT a COMIC CON in ANY sense of the phrase with which I'm familiar!
Nothing personal or harmful is intended by these comments. It is just "a review of the event" by one who paid his admission to what was billed as a "COMIC CON", and honestly felt he received far too little in return.
Funny thing... Of late, I've often wished for a "less crowded con, where the aisles are not choked by cosplayers and those who slavishly photograph them with their omnipresent phones"! Be careful what you wish for, because "Undiscovered Realm Comic Con" was pretty much that... but with virtually NO COMICS! (Sob!)
If this ever changes, please let me know, because we can always use another GOOD COMIC CON around here! ...As long it it REALLY IS a "GOOD COMIC CON"!
22 comments:
Ah, even the determinedly positive, gracious, respectful Joe we know and love can be disappointed (and CHARGED) past his endurance! Yeah, this is one of those cases where the worst fault may be the false advertising. I went recently to a meeting at a university where we were told that "breakfast" would be provided at the opening session Saturday, and there were...doughnuts! It would have been fine if they had not promised breakfast. Sorry you got caught at a Comic(s-Related Toy)Con! May there be ACTUAL ComicCons in your future at which you can fill in those gaps in your collection!
Elaine:
As POPEYE would eventually put it… “That’s all I can stands! I can’t stands no more!” And sometimes even the most beloved, fair, and even-keeled voices on “The Internet” need to let loose, when the situation calls for it.
My disappointment was real, and needed to be vented! Had they called it a “TOY FAIR”, or “FANTASY CON” or something that DIDN’T so prominently say “COMICS”, I would have simply spent a relaxing day on a few modes of transit, got together with some good friends, and enjoyed a well-presented animation panel!
BUT… NOOOOOO!
It’s unlikely that the folks behind the “Undiscovered Realm COMIC [emphasis mine] Con” will read this… unless they obsessively Google every online mention of their show… but, on the off chance they DO see this, they should know to be a little more specific (or, should I say “truthful”) in the face they present to the public!
Fear not, New York Comic Con still awaits in October – and I should still be able to attend as a professional, courtesy of Fantagraphics – or even IDW (…If they remember who I am!). And that will very nicely assuage my disappointment!
Doughnuts, and not even bagels? I suppose I would have managed… as long as they had COFFEE! But, still…
I rarely visit comic-cons in France, as they (or those near my home, anyway) too rarely seem to have much about the kind of comics I like — never once did I see a Walter Melon stand in my handful of visits, and not very much about Franco-Belgian classics like Asterix or Tintin; only Spirou seemed relatively well-represented; and let's not even talk about Disney comics, of the existence of which I'm sure most people at the con weren't aware. But they DO have comics, quite a lot of them! And not that many cosplayers. But of course, Franco-Belgian comics, even the non-classic-ones, are a style that less readily invites cosplay.
Though I persist in saying that cosplaying is more at home at a con than you make it out to be. Being there to mostly take pictures of cosplayers, now that's quite another thing — but cosplay is just a kind of fan-work, and being as much about fans meeting fans as it is about fans meeting authors, it makes sense that a con would see fans displaying their fan-works for other fans. Didn't you mention that it is at a con that you laid eyes upon Sarah Jolley's Duck Doodle Comics, for example?
That Popeye stuff looks neat; I really ought to get a better handle on the whole Popeye thing than I have now. As a child I read a bunch of scattered Popeye comics from various eras, in uneven French translations (not bad, mind you — but uneven; the toddler and the jaguar-pet-thing all went by different names seemingly every other issues, for which reason to this day I do not readily recall their names). I also watched a number of Popeye cartoons in equally-uneven French dubs, most of them in those inevitable low-quality DVDs that exist solely because someone realized the cartoons were in the public domain and there was money to be had. But I've never really revisited it since…
Oh, and about that pun you titled the article with — it's delightful, of course, though I'm reasonably confident that it's probably been done before. I've personally always found the term of "con" to rever to "conventions" a little misleading for precisely the reason that it invites this kind of pun/misunderstanding. Let's just say I was really out of my depth when I first saw fleeting mentions of people "buying things at a con" and the like.
I love that Popeye art! Popeye is one of those characters that I think best represent classic cartooning. Popeye, Betty Boop, Felix the Cat, Porky Pig, Daffy Duck, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck...all of these characters came out of one of the most creative eras of cartoons (actually, Felix predates it!).
I feel your pain, Joe! I once went with a friend who is a passionate "Trekkie" to a Star Trek convention, at least that's how it was billed. But it was more like what you described...toy vendors and other memorabilia such as old and recent movie star photos. It had little to nothing to do with Star Trek at all. There might have been one booth or part of one booth that had some of the ST action figures, but everything else was a hodgepodge of other stuff. The one plus was that we got to meet and have a long discussion with Jon Provost, who played Timmy on the Lassie TV series. That part was cool. He's extremely approachable and friendly. We only talked a little bit about his work on Lassie. Mainly we discussed other issues of the day. But that part made it worthwhile.
Here's what I did on the 4th and 5th of May this year: on the 4th I went to a birthday party of a lady who turned 78 and she is more dynamic than ever. We had tacos, cheeseburgers, and pasta salad, plus birthday cake, of course. On the 5th I went to church and we had some guest speakers who were very good. My main activity during the time I had to myself was to watch, in honor of Cinco de Mayo, "Saludos Amigos" and "The Three Caballeros". It is so fun to watch Donald Duck in feature films, especially in "Caballeros" where he cavorts with some lively live-action ladies. The color in the movie is fantastic, and I love the surrealism that pervades. My favorite scene is Acapulco Beach--which I since have learned was filmed almost entirely on the Disney studio back lot. But even so, it still gives the feeling of "being there."
Just wanted to share something good to help take away the bad taste. Better luck on the next comic-con!
Achille:
Oh, I could probably spend HOURS responding to – and expanding on – your various points! I’ll distill it down to a manageable amount as best I can…
Naturally, my comics-centric-curiosity is drawn to your observations on French comic-cons! If anything, I would have thought the Franco-Belgian classics would be prevalent there! Particularly those with huge followings like Asterix and Tintin! I don’t know how much of a following Walter Melon might have (…whatever it is, it should be larger), but I suspect it falls somewhere between that of Batman and Mutt and Jeff… Yeah, that’s a LOT of ground, and most comics would likely fall within that range. But, I would hope Walter gets more representation than Mutt and Jeff, at the very least!
Nix on Disney comics (despite a huge international following?) too. So, what IS there? Anime? American DC and Marvel comics? Some (fresh and) modern French properties? Since, in many ways, our tastes seem to parallel, I’d be curious to learn what dominates the French comic-con scene that fails to interest you!
“Though I persist in saying that cosplaying is more at home at a con than you make it out to be.”
That, I believe, has much to do with the different times (eras, actually) during which we entered the comic-con scene.
My first was in 1980, and I continued to ramp that up in the years to follow. In the early 1980s (and I’ll presume the same for the 1970s) the primary function was to BUY BACK ISSUE COMIC BOOKS FROM DEALERS!
Oh, sure you could meet ‘n’ greet some artists and writers at one of the larger conventions… but, mostly, it was about comic book buying! There were a few odd folks traipsing about dressed primarily as characters from STAR TREK, or DC and Marvel comic books – but they were a decided minority of the total attendance, and basically looked upon as a “curiosity” by the hardcore comics buyers – of which I was (and remain) one! …And almost no one was taking pictures of them because, in those days, you had to carry a CAMERA around to do so!
As time passed, these “curiosities” grew in number, and continued growing… and the invention of those “newfangled hand-held photographic phone thingies” only exacerbated the situation to where now the photographers and “the photographed” overrun what are supposed to be COMIC BOOK conventions, choking the aisles and making navigation and browsing impossible!
I suspect you came upon the scene when this was the norm, rather than the aberration! Thus, our natural difference of opinion.
Now, I have nothing against them beyond my complaint above. Indeed, I admire their creativity and dedication (imagine the looks they must get on public transport), while I simultaneously shake my head and ask “WHY?”
Why, for instance, did they choose what was once merely a comic book marketplace to invade and overrun? Scarecrow mentions “Star Trek conventions”. Why not gather in places like that, where costuming would be “part of the game”, or more “fantasy-oriented cons”? …Indeed, why not organize FULL SCALE COSPLAY CONS? They could PREEN in their sci-fi/superhero garb and furry suits, and we could SHOP! Win-Win, I’d say!
Oh, and while I DID discover the great work of Sarah Jolley at a comic-con, it was David who brought it to my attention – so that could have happened on a train, in my living room, or anywhere!
For POPEYE get the Fantagraphics Segar Popeye volumes, the Dell and Gold Key original comics – or IDW’s POPEYE CLASSICS (which reprinted the Dell issues in exact replica form). You won’t be sorry! And get any of the four Warner Bros. POPEYE DVD sets, if they are compatible with your system. All great!
I’m far from the first to make the “CON” pun! I just like it, as I like puns in general! Aw, but you already knew that…
Deb:
You write: “I love that Popeye art! Popeye is one of those characters that I think best represent classic cartooning. Popeye, Betty Boop, Felix the Cat, Porky Pig, Daffy Duck, Mickey Mouse, Donald Duck...all of these characters came out of one of the most creative eras of cartoons (actually, Felix predates it!).”
Popeye, perhaps even more so, because he came out of NEWSPAPER STRIP CARTOONING and was adapted for animation by Max and Dave Fleischer.
But, yes… I would agree that the 1930s and 1940s were, as you say, likely the most creative era of animation – ever!
Though, to my sensibilities, I would say that the 1940-1953 theatrical era was the “most entertaining period”, with the early 1960s of television (which I got to experience firsthand) being the runner up!
Scarecrow:
You bring to mind an interesting question… in that “What, exactly, IS a Star Trek convention?” (That question is even sweeter, if you read it with a “William-Shatner-esque-pause-for-effect” between EACH WORD!
I *know* what a “comic book convention” is – or, rather, what it is SUPPOSED to be… a gathering of dealers and fans, at which you (…all together now) BUY COMIC BOOKS! Though my exchange with Achille above is indicative of how that (since we’re discussing Star Trek) “Prime Directive” has become TOO broadened and diffused – to where we end up with a show like the so-called “Undiscovered Realm Comic Con”!
If, at a comic book convention, you (…all together now) BUY COMIC BOOKS, what do you do at a Star Trek convention? You can’t very well BUY STAR TREK – it isn’t for sale and, even if it was, you couldn’t afford it.
I might sound like I’m being a little facetious here (…and I probably AM, because it’s my nature), but what IS it supposed to be? Merchandise and doo-dads, as I found instead of comic books? Actor appearances, if you’re lucky! Those can be fun, depending on the actor, and the amount of time he or she can spend interacting with you.
Jon Provost? What did HE have to do with Star Trek? To the best of my knowledge, he’s not even associated with ANY aspect of Science Fiction! Even a guest from LOST IN SPACE or DOCTOR WHO would have been “closer to the mark”.
But, it seems to me that this putative “Star Trek convention” met the merchandise requirement – and it’s primary fault was in said merchandise not being “Star Trek specific” enough!
Still, there was *merchandise*, at what (by its nature) would be a “merchandise marketplace” because it can’t really be anything else – while a “comic book convention” with scant or no “comic book representation” is a DIFFERENT – AND LESSER – ANIMAL!
Regardless, I’m glad you had a better time on that day than I did – Thad’s REN AND STIMPY panel aside, of course!
The new definition of the con seems to me to be "live meet-up of as much of the fandom as can be crammed in one spot without suffocating", something which feels a very real niche in this day and age where fans mostly communicate with each other by way of the Internet. This is definitely as such that the French comic-cons exist; the word "convention" does not exist in French in this sense (to us it only means an agreement, in the sense of "Geneval conventions"), and a con is thus referred to as a "rendez-vous de la Bande-Dessinée" ("comic-book meet-up") or a "festival de la Bande-Dessiné" ("comic-book festival"). They do have large amounts of comics on sale too, but I understood this more as a natural consequence of the primary purpose of being a fan meet-up — you're gathering a lot of comic fans in one place, so might as well bring comics for them to buy, you'd be missing the business opportunity of the decade if you didn't — than an essential part of the process.
You ask what sort of things dominate these cons? Well, mostly more recent, more realistic graphic novels. The kind that local mainstream newspapers can feel good publishing interviews about without feeling like they're descending into "cult" or writing about "kids' stuff". Not all of them are bad, mind you, not by far, but I'm not particularly interested in them in the way I am about the good old classics (the Asterix-Lucky Luke-Walter Melon-etc. tradition usually known as the “gros-nez style”, or “big-nose style”, for… obvious reasons). I don't have much to say to fans of these, even if I can enjoy reading them. Plus, as a natural consequence of their self-importance, they get dreadfully expensive. At best they're……… (Cutoff! Continued in next comment!)
(Continued from Previous Comment) ………more Hergé-style than Goscinny-style; at worst they're outright realistic stuff for which I have little taste (perhaps less than even you, and you definitely favor fun, campy stuff more than the average festival-attendee).
Tintin (which, for all that Hergé didn't write them much more "seriously" than Franquin did his Spirous, has become very good at weaseling its way into the Domain of Serious Things that Academics Can Write Papers About) could indeed very well have carved itself a spot at those festivals, if not for the Official Decree that No More Tintin May Ever Be Written that led to the Tintin right-holders shooting themselves in the foot. Tintin as a product is dead as a doornail, and its fandom is rapidly degenerating into a sealed, self-sufficient circle almost totally unrelated to the rest of Franco-Belgian comic fandom. Call themselves Tintinophiles and specialize in writing long treatises about the deep philosophical and psychoanalytic implications of Tintin. Not that these books aren't sometimes interesting, but they're caught in the situation where non-comic-fan academics think they're wannabe rabble and only tolerate them to look good for the media, while non-academic comic fans think the Tintinophiles are a bunch of prickly, self-aggrandizing snobs.
Asterix is still well-known and massively popular, but it's not quite — how to put it? — respectable. The local newspapers which dutifully report on interviews with the author of Valerian or Esteban would feel a bit silly interviewing the current helsmen of Asterix, for all that everyone knows and likes Asterix.
What is Walter Melon's place in the modern comics scene? Very tiny. Not quite Mutt and Jeff-tiny; once in a while there's a reprint of the more popular books, and there was that short-lived attempt a few years ago to relaunch the series, which hasn't been officially cancelled that I know of. But my poor old namesake is nothing compared to the likes of Spirou, Iznogoud and Gaston Lagaffe, let alone a really A-list character like Asterix, Tintin or Lucky Luke. He's very much a cult property; I'd honestly compare his status to that of Carl Barks Disney comics in the U.S. (…pre-DuckTales 2017; I think substantially more people are aware of Disney comics today than three years ago). Connoisseurs know and appreciate him, and many more people grew up with him way back when and remember him fondly; but he's not a household name.
Thanks for the Popeye recommendations, but no, I'm afraid any American DVDs would be unlikely to work for me.
Achille:
You write: “ The new definition of the con seems to me to be "live meet-up of as much of the fandom as can be crammed in one spot without suffocating…”
Alas, that would seem to be the case… especially that “cramming and suffocating” part!
But why do so many different fandom constituencies (hardcore focused comic buyers like me, cosplayers, photographers, gamers, furries, art enthusiasts, manga and anime, toys, clothing and accessories seekers, Hollywood Blockbuster people) have to cram themselves into COMIC BOOK CONVENTIONS?!
Why can’t each niche have specifically focused gatherings for its own unique interests, and leave us to our “hardcore, focused buying” of comic books! I promise I won’t invade your OWN cons, get in YOUR way, and have dealers that DON’T cater to your special interests taking up valuable space!
Two years ago, David showed me an amazing visual diagram (for lack of a better descriptive phrase) that so perfectly illustrated my point. That being that the more people you “let in” that are not focused on your specific interest, the quicker your group or event “becomes something else” – and YOU leave it, because it’s not what you wanted it to be anymore! (…Did that make sense?)
It started with 3-4 people primarily interested in comics. Then one of those people introduces to the group “someone else – not as interested in comics, but more interested in cosplay”. The group is already less focused and more diffused.
Then, they admit a gamer… Then, a furry… Then, an anime enthusiast. And so on… Soon, the group has completely lost its original focus, and the original comics fans leave because it’s not what they want anymore! They start another tightly focused group… and the same thing happens – over and over!
THAT is how I feel about (what used to be) COMIC CONS! Stop the relentless tide of diffusion! Make some individual cons just about COMICS again! I’ll be there, I promise! Unless you’re beyond a 50-100 Mile radius… and nowhere near a train station!
“They do have large amounts of comics on sale too, but I understood this more as a natural consequence of the primary purpose of being a fan meet-up — you're gathering a lot of comic fans in one place, so might as well bring comics for them to buy, you'd be missing the business opportunity of the decade if you didn't — than an essential part of the process. ”
But, WHY would “comic fans” gather – in ANY place – if there weren’t comic books for them to buy. A thousand or so fans coming together is not like David, Jonathan, Thad, and me just meeting for lunch! SOMETHING has to draw them – thus the comics, which (alas) may no longer be the primary draw – due to all that diffusion!
Your report on the dominant comics at French cons is a real eye opener. It certainly isn’t what I thought, from my own Marvel/DC-centric vantage point in the US.
Being on “The Continent”, I’d have thought Franco-Belgian comics (particularly the classics) to be plentiful, accompanied by German, Dutch, and Italian issues of various types, as well as a fair number of American imports – and certainly a larger Disney presence because… because… well, it IS Europe, after all! And, unlike us, Europe appreciates the stuff!
For what it’s worth, in 2017, I found American DC Comics all over Israel, including some issues of SCOOBY-DOO I needed… so, why not France?
Yeah, I didn’t think American DVDs would be of any use to you. Oh, well… There’s always YouTube (Though things have a nasty habit of VANISHING all the time – unlike my DVDs!) And, hopefully, you can still get some of the better Popeye comics I mentioned.
Looks shiftily left and right
Rugged outlaw voice
There are… other places than YouTube.
Back to ordinary voice
There are definitely DC comics to be found in France, and they're quite plentiful; but “comics” (and we call them that even in French, as opposed to our home-grown bandes-dessinées) are felt to be 'something else', as distant from Franco-Belgian stuff as the likes of manga. In the bookshop where I get most of my new comics, American “comics” have their own dedicated room, like “manga”, separate from the main room. It's worth noting that Disney comics are classified as bandes dessinées rather than comics; comics really is just the superhero stuff.
But, WHY would “comic fans” gather – in ANY place – if there weren’t comic books for them to buy? Well… to hear panels such as the one you've been complimenting, get to meet (and get your comics signed by) some of your favorite authors, to see special exhibits of original comic 'artifacts' (i.e. framed Hergé originals…). And generally to bask in the feeling of an entire street/building/whatever filled only with like-minded people; quite a different thrill than just meeting up for lunch with a couple of good friends who you know share your interests already.
As for the "inviting more and more people" phenomenon you describe, it is of course well-known to me. I think Scott Alexander has a good article about this somewhere.
Achille Talon: I found your description of what's "in" and what's "out" at French comics festivals to be very interesting (not to mention delightfully well written!).
Joe: I'm no expert, but my sense is that the First of All the Cons were Star Trek Conventions. And the primary purpose of those, in those dim pre-internet days, was for Star Trek fans to meet other Star Trek fans. Indeed, local Star Trek conventions sometimes created actual, embodied, functioning human community, with people staying in touch between conventions, caring about each other's lives, in some cases even corporately doing social action-y stuff, like an Elks lodge. Since many Star Trek fans felt they had a shared value system (diversity is good, work towards a cooperative future, respect other cultures, trust science, balance logic and emotion, value friendship as found family, seek scientific discovery, etc.), it makes sense that they could form community that had some heft to it.
Also, the Star Trek original series created a very powerful and attractive narrative world, and when the series ended people had no way of continuing to live in that world (other than re-runs, even no VHS yet!) other than gathering with others who loved it.
In terms of what happened at the cons: there were appearances of ST-related folks, major or very minor/ancillary; there were panel discussions of aspects of ST; there were big-screen viewings of scenes from the show or interviews of creators/actors; there was gradually more cosplaying; there were eventually tables of merch; once there were movies or new TV series, there would be previews/hints/rumors of what was to come. At one very small (but fun!) ST convention I attended in the 1980's, the guest of honor was the author of one of the best ST books, and there was excited discussion of the actor who was to play Sisko and viewing of VHS clips of the actor's work. I don't even remember whether there were tables of merch! I got my copy of the author's book personally autographed, and the only thing I walked away with was a feminist Democratic campaign button which the author gave me.
The other function of the Star Trek convention phenomenon pre-internet was to tell the powers-that-be that Star Trek continued to have a committed fandom, which did contribute to the creation of further Star Trek movies/TV shows/books.
Maybe Comic Cons primarily for comics-buying developed simultaneously or even earlier than Star Trek Cons...but I do think that Star Trek Cons led to fantasy cons and comics cons as we know them, cosplaying and all. Once properties other than Star Trek were involved, though, there was considerably less of what I would call real community and shared values. And once people began to connect on the internet, conventions were no longer the main way to interact with fellow fans of anything. Though meeting in person still has its advantages. I myself am thinking about attending the Boston Fan Expo (*there's* an honest name!) this August, since Don Rosa is going to be there; part of the draw is the fun of showing him and anyone else at his table my Very Cool Italian Magica De Spell tote bag. I can use it anywhere, but how often do you think I meet people who know who Magica is?
Achille:
You write: “But, WHY would “comic fans” gather – in ANY place – if there weren’t comic books for them to buy? Well… to hear panels such as the one you've been complimenting, get to meet (and get your comics signed by) some of your favorite authors, to see special exhibits of original comic 'artifacts' (i.e. framed Hergé originals…). And generally to bask in the feeling of an entire street/building/whatever filled only with like-minded people; quite a different thrill than just meeting up for lunch with a couple of good friends who you know share your interests already.”
Oh, I TOTALLY SEE and GET that! And, in the broader and more general sense, I quite agree with it!
But, on that “like-minded people” thing… is a furry, or someone dressed as a battle-axe (with optional adjective “Legendary” - Sorry, can’t help it!) carrying elf REALLY “like-minded” with someone like me – who is primarily there to get as many Dell, Gold Key, DC, and even Charlton comic books that he doesn’t already have?
I suppose if you’re dressed as Batman or Harley Quinn (as so many folks are these days), we have a “like-minded” interest in Batman and Harley Quinn… though mine is limited to comics, TV, and films – and not actually “becoming” them, and being incessantly photographed by "In-The-Way-Onlookers"! Same would hold true for Star Trek.
Now, we all know that diversity and inclusiveness is always a good thing but, at what point should each individual interest group spin-off its own gatherings, and call them something other than a “COMIC CON”?
For example, if you were a GOLFER, you wouldn’t go to a POLO CLUB *as* a GOLFER, even if you HAD some interest in polo – and begin PLAYING GOLF on the polo field, disrupting the game of polo?
No, you’d join a GOLF CLUB for that – and play golf at that club! Yes, the analogy is broad, but I think it serves to illustrate my point!
I’d be very interested seeing in the article on “inviting more and more people”, if you can supply a link. I’ll link to it here, for all to see!
Warning for the fact that Alexander's articles are famously long and digression-prone, not to mention strikingly more political than usual TIAH fare, but: the article I had in mind was The Ideology is Not the Movement (https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/04/04/the-ideology-is-not-the-movement/) from 2016. The most relevant passage is Section IV-6 of the essay.
The gist being that a very good sociological way of looking at the phenomenon is that the stated purpose of a building "tribe" is often just a rallying flag meant to gather people who have other, preexisting things in common, which they won't state as part of the tribe's identity even though they're the essential bit. The tribe starts to fall apart once new, clueless people show up just because they like the "rallying flag" even though they don't share the other stuff.
In our comic-con example, this theory's analysis of the situation would be that the stated purpose of "a meetup of comic-fans" was just the rallying-flag for a special type of comic-book enthusiasts, mostly interested in collecting old back issues. Unfortunately, comic-cons didn't wear the "it's to buy old comics" addendum on their sleeve, and so more and more people showed up, under the misconception that they clearly belonged here, since they liked comics and wanted to meet people. Give it time and you get a result where the rallying-flag is all that's left and the original ingroup that had rallyed around said flag is a minority made miserable by everyone else but powerless to argue their case, since it's right there in the name of the thing that the rallying-flag is what it's all about.
I'd need to give it more thought (and hear more of your first-hand experience) to give an educated opinion of how well the above simplification matches reality; but it's definitely an interesting way to think about it.
Elaine:
From my then-remote vantage point, I had always regarded the rise of the Comic Book Convention and the Star Trek Convention, as something of a “parallel growth and development phenomenon”. Separate but simultaneous lines of evolution.
But, ever in the interests of accuracy, I found THIS ARTICLE on the “Legendary” (WITHOUT a “Super Pickax”) Phil Seuling, the father of the Comic Book Direst Market – and perhaps (?) the father of the Comic Book Convention as well!
Everyone should read the piece to see just how important this man was to so many of the things we take for granted today – but, if not, it says that Sueling staged his first Comic Con in New York City in 1968! As these events took place in JULY of each year, until eventually becoming monthly – though on a smaller scale than the annual con – this would have been when STAR TREK’s second (and best) season was in what we then called “summer repeats”. Seuling would follow this up with another such con in 1969!
So, it looks like comic books got there first, as STAR TREK would go into it’s third (and worst by far) season, before cancellation.
As a total aside, I actually “knew” Phil Seuling – as much as you could “know anybody” that you spoke with once-a-month. He was large, loud, brash, (what was then regarded as “Brooklyn-y” before the hipster invasion)… and very friendly, enthusiastic and approachable! Beyond his great accomplishments, that led to the creation of comic book shops, I simply liked the guy! …Ya just couldn’t not!
“Also, the Star Trek original series created a very powerful and attractive narrative world, and when the series ended people had no way of continuing to live in that world (other than re-runs, even no VHS yet!) other than gathering with others who loved it.”
For what it’s worth, I lived very happily in “that world” via the daily reruns (some of which I had sound-recorded on cassette tape for repeat enjoyment, along with LOST IN SPACE, BATMAN, AND VOYAGE TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SEA) – and via books and comics.
Now *maybe* the flood of books owe their existence to the Star Trek Convention… though I was devouring books by David Gerrold and James Blish before I became aware of the cons… but the GOLD KEY COMICS VERSION OF STAR TREK was published continuously from 1967-1979, with NO break due to the series cancellation. As you can SEE HERE!
So, I don’t regard that necessarily as a result of the conventions – just continued good sales! Or, worse… Western Publishing running on its own inertia, as it often appeared to do as the seventies wore on.
What I *do* regard as a result of the Star Trek Conventions is the beginnings and monstrous rise of cosplay! So much so, that it should... er, "logically" have conventions (…all together now) of its own!
And, hey… Everyone around HERE knows who Magica De Spell is!
While I tend to think of this Blog as an extension / outgrowth of the classic comic book letter columns, it may very will serve as a “comic con gathering” too! How about that!
By the vagaries of Blogger, my reply to Elaine (directly above) was posted just after receiving another comment from Achille Talon – who REALLY provided QUITE A LINK that applies to our general discussion!
Go back up and read his last comment and then take the link, which YOU CAN REACH HERE! It’s VERY LONG and quite philosophical… but also fascinating!
Now, back to our unexpectedly compelling discussion!
Achille:
Thanks so much for this! It took a while to read… and (as you note) is far from the easy-peasy-breezy-with-a-pinch-of-salt-type of commentary you’ll find at TIAH Blog, but well worth the time!
Yes, I suppose EVERYTHING is, in one form or another, a “tribe”! I guess I belong to several “tribes” with “Dell, Gold Key, DC, (and even) Charlton Back Issue Enthusiast” being one! Heck that one shows ALL OVER this Blog – in the form of “Adventures in Comic-Boxing”, “Separated At Mirth”, etc.
“The tribe starts to fall apart once new, clueless people show up just because they like the "rallying flag" even though they don't share the other stuff.”
…And THAT is essentially what David’s diagram (mentioned somewhere above) illustrated!
“In our comic-con example, this theory's analysis of the situation would be that the stated purpose of "a meetup of comic-fans" was just the rallying-flag for a special type of comic-book enthusiasts, mostly interested in collecting old back issues. Unfortunately, comic-cons didn't wear the "it's to buy old comics" addendum on their sleeve, and so more and more people showed up, under the misconception that they clearly belonged here, since they liked comics and wanted to meet people. Give it time and you get a result where the rallying-flag is all that's left and the original ingroup that had rallied around said flag is a minority made miserable by everyone else but powerless to argue their case, since it's right there in the name of the thing that the rallying-flag is what it's all about.”
PERFECTLY PUT! And THIS is how we end up with something like “Undiscovered Realm Comic Con”, that is SOOO far off the mark it doesn’t even resemble anything that would pass for my idea of a “Comic Con”!
This has been ONE AMAZING DISCUSSION! I never thought so much could be wrung from my griping about a “comic con” with a scant few comics!
This is also why I SOOO enjoy hosting this rallying-flag… er, I mean Blog!
Achille and EVERYONE… take a collective bow, and keep rallying around this Blog! I’ll do my best to keep it “on mission”!
Hi, Joe. Sorry to hear about your bad experience at the con... a term I'm using advisedly. On the bright side, at least you got that special Popeye issue... and what better time to get it than in 2019, as Popeye celebrates his 90th birthday!
I was very interested to hear Achille's take on comic cons in France. I, too, would have thought that classic Franco-Belgian comics would be more prominent at said conventions.
I was particularly struck by his observations on Tintin's increasingly-isolated fan base. I'm a huge Tintin fan myself. (I've now read every Tintin book at least once, except for the uncompleted "Tintin and the Alph-Art and "Tintin and the Lake of Sharks," the latter being the only official Tintin book not written by Hergé. Guess who wrote it? Greg. Yes, the Walter Melon guy! How did it get written? Well, it's based on an animated film that Hergé supervised.) Anyway, Achille's comments on Tintin's fan base and on Tintin as a product being dead made me reflect on Hergé's decree that no Tintin books be made after his death.
I've long been torn on this decision myself. On the one hand, it means that Tintin is losing its relevance, as Achille so masterfully describes. After all, there's only so much you can do with such restricted source material. An animated series was made back in the 1990s, and what's the point of making another, based on the same exact stories? I wonder if Tintin's lack of relevance is the reason why his 90th birthday this year has, as far as I can tell, attracted virtually no attention? Very much unlike Mickey Mouse's 90th birthday last year and Popeye's this year.
On the other hand, I certainly understand where Hergé was coming from. I certainly don't mind the fact that there are no "fresh and modern" takes on Tintin being made. Just the mere thought of such productions makes me shudder! I think of the current run of The Phantom newspaper comic strip. It's okay, and entertaining enough, but just not the same as Lee Falk's version. The mythological, legendary aspect is largely absent from the current run, and today's Phantom strikes me as a rather unsympathetic character. Reading today's Phantom comics, I can't help but find myself mocking the hero more than cheering for him. And thank goodness we'll never see a redesigned Tintin universe, such as we see with the current Hanna-Barbera comics from DC. Some of them look OK and even rather appealing on their own terms, but reimagining of classic properties just isn't my style. I say, leave well enough alone. If you want to make new stories featuring classic characters, that's wonderful, but respect the original creator's vision and intentions. If you want new takes, make new characters.
All of that being said, I would love to see Moulinsart make an exception regarding new Tintin stories, and allow a Scooby-Doo Team-Up miniseries where the Mystery Inc. gang crosses paths with Hergé's colorful cast of characters!
Sergio:
A Scooby-Doo / Tintin Team-Up? What a wonderful idea!
Come to think of it, who would have ever thought that the Scooby-Doo characters (who basically do only one thing) could ever have become so “flexible” that they could team-up with any and all characters across the vast spectrum of fantasy! I’d have never believed that back in 1969!
I’m of mixed emotions when it comes to the constant reimagining of classic characters. With few exceptions, such as the ‘90s Batman and Superman animated series, so many of them – including today’s DC Comics – much less Marvel which, to me, “went bad” by the early ‘90s, once the Image artist group took over and made everything grotesque – often LOSE that which made them great in the first place!
You can even see it creeping into Italian Disney comics, with things like PKNA (Modern Duck Avenger), Ultraheroes, etc. TOO far away from Barks and Gottfredson to be recognizable.
You could make the same argument for the modern interpretations of the Hanna-Barbera properties in more recent DC comics. “Hit and miss” is about as kind an assessment as can be.
But, if you seal a property under creative lock and key to future talents, you also never get the opportunity to produce the occasional gem (…more “occasional” than I feel they OUGHT TO BE) like the ‘90s Batman and Superman animated series, Scooby-Doo Mystery Incorporated, the Scooby-Doo Team-Up comics title, DuckTales (either incarnation – both of which have their share of positives and negatives) and more.
Unfortunately, to my tastes, more reimagined classic properties come down on the negative side, so I really have no definitive view on this matter!
And, yes… Achille sure made many interesting contributions to this thread, didn’t he? Especially since its intent was just for me to gripe about an unsatisfactory comic con experience!
Tintin wouldn't have to be "reimagined" — Bob De Moor was already the unsung coauthor of Tintin when Hergé was alive, and had on several occasions demonstrated that he could do the job all by himself if needed (indeed, it is said that these demonstrations wounded Hergé in his honor and prompted him to make the decree). And surely Yves Rodier could hatch a full Tintin adventure worthy of the name? And heck, Greg, as we'll see in a moment, was once inches away from officially writing a Tintin comic, and while his usual artstyle is quite different, he was also a chameleon of an artist who could imitate just anyone (there are fake panels of Astérix and Tintin by him as part of a Melon parody that beggar belief).
Concerning gus Tintin, Greg actually wrote two stories; Lake of Sharks was the animated film, and the comic adaptation wasn't drawn by Hergé (which is the reason it's nearly impossible to find these days; the decree advises against its reprint, you see). But there was also Tintin and the Thermozero, a Cold War-inspired story which Hergé drew a few pages of before growing bored of drawing someone else's story and going off to do Tintin in Tibet instead.
As for how Greg writing Tintin happened, that's very simple: he was, for most of its existence, the editor-in-chief of the Tintin weekly. Indeed, the long-form Melon stories were published there, while Pilote kept to his Melon two-pagers. And for a brief period there was also the Achille Talon Magazine, meaning you could get new Melon in three different sources every month (an unparallelled situation in Franco-Belgian comickery). Plus, Melon was his star product, but Greg was unspeakably prolific — another reason to compare him to Stan Lee as you did based on his picture, that. He started dozens of series by himself, and wrote countless others which others drew.
Among these is the fact that he contributed three or four scripts to Spirou & Fantasio, which are considered among the very best of the Franquin period (the original Zorglub duology, for example). Meaning Greg was inches away from having written both for Spirou and his long-time rival Tintin, fancy that!
Oh, and about a Scooby-Doo/Tintin Team-Up — that obviously never happened, but did you know there was a fully official Italian Disney comic which saw Donald and Gyro team up with Tintin and Haddock? For reasons of the blasted decree, the names had to be changed (it's “Denden” and “Hadciuk”), but that's easily forgotten.
Achille:
And we THINK we know SO MUCH in the USA! …SNORT!
We know, to whatever degree that Tintin has penetrated our largely insular pop culture, that Hergé was one of the “giants”, but clearly Greg is a giant in his own right! So many varied contributions to the world of Franco-Belgian comics!
And we think the comic book grotesquery of Todd McFarlane is such hot sh*t! Shame on us!
As you know from THIS POST, I’d love to see more of those “long-form Melon stories” in English! But our own publishers can’t even give us an UNCLE SCROOGE comic that “reads well” anymore, my beloved SCOOBY-DOO TEAM-UP has just been demoted to bimonthly, and formerly good mainstream titles like BATMAN have adopted the extreme “Image Comics-style grotesqueries” that DC once proudly dismissed! …Any wonder I’m far more focused on back issues these days? We just “don’t get it” over here!
I’ll “see” that Donald/Tintin team-up with this one for Superman and Asterix… and “raise you” this Superman and Popeye!
Funny thing is that, when I read the former back in 1986, I had but the faintest idea that this was a tribute to “some comic I’ve heard of called Asteroid, Astronaut, or sumpthin’”!
Meaning I kinda knew what it was supposed to be but, unlike with Popeye, didn’t *really* know! Just shows how much we ALL need to learn… and that’s one of the greatest things about this Blog – the exchange of knowledge that takes place in each and every post! I thank you for that!
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